RT : Just back from kayaking in the flat water around Belle Island. I kept forgetting that there was a city behind me. 06:28:11 PM July 27, 2010
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March 16, 2009
The RTD is reporting that the City is spending $100 k to study to the financial feasibility of the stadium proposal. A spokesperson for Highwood Properties calls the independent assessment “greatly encouraging”. [via]
UPDATE: The firms that will perform the independent assessment already endorsed the project in a study they performed 6 months ago. The study will focus specifically on Highwoods Proposal, whereas the initial study focused on where the best location for the stadium is. [via]
Posted by jacqui at 1:30PM under RVANews-news, government | Tags: Shockoe Center, stadium
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And yet more money spent on this dumb idea….
study, i hate studies
A drop in the bucket compared to the potential returns for the metro richmond area.
How many idiots do we have to hear from?
I know of NO ONE that wants this???
Indeed Erik, how many? I know of many who want to give this idea the attention and consideration it deserves.
@Erik – I’m for it & I know many people that are as well.
All the anti-folks cried foul over moving forward because we didn’t know enough about it… now they’re crying foul b/c the city is taking steps to know more? I don’t understand.
@john m- i’d like to ask you a question for transparency’s sake. Do you or any company you are associatd with, recieve any financial revenue from the City of Richmond? If you or any company you are a part of recieves revenue from any city entity I believe your opinion is biased and thusly irrelevant.
This is AA baseball, right?, I heard a news report today Richmond was buying a AAA team? IS it a AAA or AA team?
Edward – I’m in no position to receive any money from this, and some naysayers assert that my employer will be negatively impacted by the city spending money on this project.
I see this as a great way to jump start the redevelopment of Shockoe Bottom.
I love how supporters forget the time it will take to tear down and prep the area then build and while this is happening people who live here who have to live with the noise of construction and the lack of parking because construction workers don’t want to pay for their parking as well. The fact anyone who would go out for lunch decide to go to Carytown because it does not look like a war zone and the Dinner crowd can’t find a space to park decide that they would rather forgo going to Shockoe Bottom.
This is a real great stimulis and when they do have everything constructed and all the family built business have gone under from lack of support they will have plenty of room for some Chain that takes their money right out of the Bottom.
The fact that the ballpark will only be used for ballgames is ignored or you could try to make it a concert venue and drive Browns Island out of business. but hey anything in the name of progress.
It doesn’t take $100,000 to learn that the club they’re considering moving to Richmond already owes the city of Norwich $363,000 in back rent on their stadium.
From MSNBC:
“(Norwich) City council members unanimously agreed Monday night (3/16) to beginning the process of selling the Defenders to a Virginia-based group. The resolution officially transfers the outstanding stadium lease from the existing owners to the new ownership.
“The resolution requires the new owners pay all outstanding debts to the city. Right now, that total is around $363,000 in back rent and other debts.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29730637/
And with that- let the shell game begin!
SBD,
Um, Brown’s Island isn’t in the “concert business.” Those shows are free.
And the parade or horribles you put forward might as well be used as a reason to never develop anything anywhere, because my goodness, there might be some construction traffic and inconveniences!
Many of those who argued against the stadium cried for an objective point of view on the finances – they claimed they couldn’t trust the city or the developers. Well the only other option is hiring somebody to perform the due diligence, so that’s what you get – a $100,000 report. People typically don’t do this stuff for free. This isn’t an idea you can just sweep aside and say “Meh, some of the area doesn’t like it and claim the developers are crooked, they must be right.” The council is making a compromise.
Ballparks are capable of holding lots of activities aside from games – festivals (especially on 360 concourses), concerts, flea markets, etc.
Po(e), the team of the moment is AA – the Connecticut Defenders of the Eastern League.
Stuart, I agree that paying the backrent stinks, but if those partners who are putting up the money agree to pay for it, then who are we to judge?
I support this idea and so does almost everyone I know. I do not receive money from this project. Why can’t y’all who against this idea accept that fact that many people support it without implying we’re on the developer’s payroll.
I think y’all are in denial!
Anna my point was more that this is a failed business and we are gambling public money it will improve our local economy. They owe the last city money, why do we think they’re not going to owe us money five years down the road?
Now, if all the business partners in question were to build this stadium on their own, who am I to judge? Let them gamble their own money on this risky boondoggle. No one is stopping Highwoods from building in Shockoe Bottom.
Richmond really needs to focus on implementing the Downtown Master Plan. That’s how WE decided our city should develop, and OUR money should be spent on getting those projects done already. Moving forward on the Plan has taken way too long because our leaders have been wasting time playing the developer shell game on projects like this one.
Well Fan it takes alot less construction to put up Shopping complex than it does a Stadium and it would have parking to spare. The Concerts may be free to the public but trust me they cost someone.
All the stuff Anna describes for alternative stadium uses we already have already in place.
This thing is going to be railroaded in regardless.This is just the City Council is just going throught the motions as they collect their “Donations”
I never accused people of being on the payroll Edg but I do see people who don’t live in Shockoe Bottom and will never have to deal with the issues involved thinking they should decide something they would totally shoot down if it was in their backyard.
Stuart, just because AA failed in norwich doesn’t mean it will fail in Richmond. I’m not sure if the population numbers have been discussed here, but the difference is vast. Also, due to the late-arriving warmth in Connecticut, few people want to sit in the stands for the socially-focused experience that is minor league baseball. Norwich had no business hosting a full-season minor league team (as the mayor and others are now recognizing).
Furthermore, bringing the team to Richmond doesn’t mean this very nice, very expensive complex will be built. It just means there will be a team should they decide to go ahead with the project – and the Eastern League will approve the transfer should it be fairly certain a stadium will be built (anywhere in Richmond) or **major** renovation of the Diamond takes place.
SBD, they might be able to bring more popular acts for an outdoor venue if they charge for the event – they might be able to charge more for the event should there be a defined venue with defined seating and other amenities present (permanent concessions, non-portable toilets).
Also, considering some of your neighbors of shockoe bottom have posted that they support the stadium (and recently i talked to one of my coworkers who lives in a loft down there), I’d say you’re a little ‘off base’ that everybody would shoot it down if it were in their backyard. I know I wouldn’t. Especially if that backyard was filled with empty lots, chain link fences, and abandoned buildings.
Funny Anna when they don’t know the repercussions they were sold a bill of goods but far be it from me to mention all the canvasing and selling people this dream. When the city council uses the same exact people who tried to sell Doug Wilder this. But this just proves minds have been made so you really don’t have to worry. This is so transparent but hey all I can say is I tried….
Funny think when everything is a few million over targeted building projections and in 2014 when they open you will be able to watch AA ball for about 40 bucks and 15 dollar parking and trust me those prices will be right by then. The city will be taxing everyone they can to cover it all and it will be business as usual.
Anna you would have sold me if I had not see the same song and dance from one forced project to another and when it goes wrong they will blame everyone else.
Personally I would rather fill those lots with affordable Shopping and a theater to accommodate all the people who could actually let them walk to a store instead of wasting gas and money at Short Pump or Stony Point but hey I am just the guy who wants to stop progress.
Just to note, the past owners of the Defenders owe money, not the owners that are purchasing the team and bringing it to Richmond.
SBD, can you give a source of those prices you claim will be charged for the tickets?
http://lifeinthe804.blogspot.com/2009/03/shockoe-baseball-opponents-misleading.html
Oh goodie, we are posting links again…
http://hillsandheights.org/2009/03/17/shockoe-center-development-at-the-plate-again/
Laugh. $40 for minor league baseball. Ok, sure thing. Funny that that’s roughly (often more than) the cost for a family of 4 to purchase tickets to ANY OTHER minor league team.
Ry that was about what you payed to see a AA team down in Hayes Florida near Orlando and for that I tended to Spring training for the Florida Marlins and other Major league Teams for nothing but I had contacts back then. They just got the ballpark and they needed money for filled seats about what it will be like here in Richmond after the first few games.
Laugh Anna that is what it cost just before they went belly up the again they were going against spring trainning and losing
Richmond has always been a “study” kind of town, now we’re starting to study studies.
At this rate, we’ll soon be having studies to study the people doing studies. And, this debacle is only costing us $100K on top of the $150 previously paid for essentially the same information.
Wanna bet they “sole-sourced” this one in order to avoid putting it out for a bid?
Basically, this appears to be a “do-over” on the taxpayers’ dime.
Shameful. Sickening. $250,000 would have been better used from the schools and other city buildings into compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act.
Or fixing potholes,
Or improving school playgrounds,
Or fixing leaky roofs …………
I’ll pretend that sentence made sense.
You think a business person would honestly think raising the tickets to $40 would increase profits?? How many people would pay for those – I can answer that, about 5. They’d likely raise food prices before they made tickets that expensive. There’s no incentive to make baseball the most expensive ticket in town, the chance of repeat attendees is slim. Get real.
Oh, and the most expensive ticket to one of the MLB Philadelphia Phillies Spring Training Game – $30, the cheapest is $11. I’m not sure they even charge for the minor league games, I can’t find any listings for the Phils.
Even if the tickets were more expensive for spring training then regular season, I could very easily make the argument that the market for Spring Training is way different than regular season. They don’t have to draw the same fans every year, Spring Training is very much the well-off fan’s activity (as they have to travel to florida or arizona in the first place), and making money off ST is a luxury for the parent club…all the money goes to the parent club, what do they care if they have lots of fans vs. make money off the die-hards?
Never said they were smart they knew they were in the hole and tried to get others to pay it out. They could not touch food because they had no control over that Aramark did. The team was renting the park and was 5 years behind on rent they folded about a game after the one I went to.They gambled and lost and there are plenty of other teams like that.
Hey I payed less for NFL and NBA games but that is what I was charged. It also tended to turn me off the idea of minor league ball for a while. And if you don’t think they won’t try to gain revenue for parking you really need to remember that if the ballpark doesn’t do it the City will.
I never payed for spring training games but I knew the people who owned the parks by then and I worked for the place Florida stayed during training so they compt me.
Anna,
No one doubts your ability to make an argument. The issue here is as it has always been — in this economy — how in the world can we justify building a brand-damn new stadium in the middle of a flood plain that will likely cause first base to be under water more times than not?
WHY NOT use the money to renovate the Diamond, rehab the Boulevard?
In one of your last comments to me, you proved that the Diamond certainly attracted the requisite number of attenders.
ANd, now taxpapyers are being ripped off (again) by payi g an additional $100k on top of the previous $150 k paid to the experts to produce another opinion to say the same thing the first one did.
Ridiculous. Wasteful.
You rock, Anna.
How often is any part of the bottom under water? To that end, how often is the bottom under water from April-August…the brunt of hurricane season is mid-August through October.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, you will not get people who don’t live near the Boulevard to go to the Boulevard from September – March. The same logic for why 6th street failed applies – you can’t force people to go where they don’t naturally want to go. People didn’t want to go to the “center” of downtown, and I haven’t seen a whole lot going on on the Boulevard since the R-Braves left. Yeah, there’s a movie theater inside a currently empty shopping center (that I’ve heard nothing about since it opened) – has anybody heard of *anything* else signing on to that area?
For the most part, people don’t have to be forced to go to the Slip or Bottom, its already a destination. For those who don’t go, one trip to the refurbished area for a baseball game just might open their eyes to all the area has to offer. That’s my opinion, I’m sure there are plenty of *good* dissenting arguments.
SBD – I have no idea what team you’re talking about…care to share? Also, regarding the parking, they will try to make *some* money off the parking lots but the same thing applies, if people don’t want to pay to park, they won’t come – they’d be very bad businesspeople to do such a thing. Also, if they own the lots, I don’t think the city can charge for parking.
The Diamond attracted a lot of paid attendance up until a few years ago (2004 is the first big hit to the numbers I saw).
The study is not the same. One was to study which area in Richmond would be the best, the new one is to see if THIS project works financially considering attendance models/leasing numbers.
Thank you, tiny.
next you will tell me Norfolk does not charge for parking it is an unwritten deal if Richmond plans to invest in this they will try to get revenue any way they can. The only reason they took the parking meters from around the 17th St market was because they were too expensive to replace after Gaston. I beleive the team had changed names but they were the Gadors by the time I saw them and they lost their pro-team affiliation a year before they changed the name but this is all poor memory and speculation. They could have all been a bunch of Ex-Drinkers( the looked like they fell off the wagon again)
Anna they were thinking of waiting til summer and purpously flooding the bottom and unsing Broad and Main as slip and slides but they are worried a water polo match will break out and the horses will drown
SBD,
Your sarcasm is rich and entertaining, but in the meantime some of us are trying to do something meaningful for Richmond, downtown and the Bottom. This patch of land has stood wasted and empty for too long and could be the key to unlocking the potential of this entire area.
By the time this project goes online we will be (hopefully) in a vastly different economic cycle. The time to invest is when you are are the bottom of recession, not the top.
Paul I can think of plenty of cheaper better productive uses for the area that would benefit people who live in the area. Those project could happen but they get dismissed because everyone thinks that the ball park will be the messiah and solve all our ills and most forget it takes time to build. So the team has to play next season in Con but the ball park is not going to be ready for another 2 years after that. a shopping complex could be built in a year and be doing actual business.
Anna, while the Bottom may rarely be underwater, this ballfield will beunderwater always and perpetually without major engineering works which have not been taken into account in the numbers presented thus far. Its called groundwater. I direct your attention to page 20 of the March, 2009 edition of Smithsonian magazine and the article “Devil’s Half Acre” on the Lumpkins Jail site. The accompanying picture carries the caption, ” Archeologists excavating the jail had to cope with groundwater that filled trenches as fast as they were dug.” The ditches in question are above the proposed finish grade of the sunken ballfield. You may, or may not, recall that when the Discovery ChannelExtensive drainage and perpetual pumping will be required. As groundwater is extracted, the surrounding , unexcavated ground will tend to settle as the water’s bouyancy is extracted from the soil. I now direct your attention to the first consultant’s report from ’08. Factoids I picked up from an initial scanning:The projected cost of $60 million in bonding authority was not for a $60 million ballpark – it was for a $40 mllion ballpark and a $20 million 1,000 space parking deck. The consultants specify that they were instructed not to consider any costs of stormwater or floodplain remediation issues. Uh-oh. Shockoe Bottom is a superior economic choice only IF the RMA kicks in several million dollars per year. Uh-oh. Recommendations were made as to market demand for the private sector development – the recommendations are totally trashed in the Highwoods proposal – uh oh.Oh, Anna, the consultants seem to have a much more positive outlook on the Boulevard. The
basic premise of the consultants was that the area is too good for baseball and baseball is a drag on its potential.
From above:
You may, or may not, recall that when the Discovery ChannelExtensive drainage and perpetual pumping will be required.
Should have read: You may, or may not, recall that when the Discovery Channel produced a program on the Church Hill train tunnel, they found a tunnel full of groundwater. The tunnel is uphill from the ballfield. Extensive drainage…
Hope that makes a little more sense.
I can think of plenty of cheaper better productive uses … Those project(s) don’t exist as far as I know. What are they? Who’s going to build them? What kind of support are they asking for?
I’m open to different ideas, but I haven’t seen any concrete proposals.
everyone thinks that the ball park will be the messiah
I don’t agree with that, especially the first two words.
Paul You won’t hear any other proposals for that area because the people who want to do the Ballpark won’t have it. They have staked claim to the area so people with alternative ideas won’t even bother especially when we have so many people willing to railroad this thing through. Personally I really don’t care if you agree on the first two words or any other part of my statement it is already a forgone conclusion this is going to happen. Just because this thing is supported by the majority doesn’t make it right or good for Shockoe Bottom.
Ptaylor good facts which most tend to ignore but we lost this little war because people believe in the Baseball Park Messiah will save Shockoe Bottom and that the Ball Park will appear next year ready to watch baseball and be able to stop flooding,earthquakes and bring peace and harmony to the universe. (Tall order too bad reality is not going to come even close)
Paul- you will find good projects to improve the Bottom in Chapter 4 of the Downtown Master Plan.
http://www.richmondgov.com/forms/docs/online/downtown/Rich_Ch4_110608_lores.pdf
Among them are things like improving the streetscaping, creating pedestrian connections between the Bottom and the river, creating better transit connections so parking isn’t such a problem, developing the Slave Trail, returning the streets to two way operation and so forth.
C.O.R.D. Richmond has also developed an extensive vision for the Bottom with many of the same design elements as the Master Plan:
http://www.richmondneighborhoods.org/documents/VisionforShockoeBottomUpdatedCORD.pdf
As noted in the Master Plan, the Bottom has a well preserved street grid and it should be protected as an asset to the area. Unfortunately the Shockoe Center plan calls for the destruction of four city blocks to create a superblock of buildings massed out of proportion to the rest of the neighborhood.
There are an abundance of ideas for Shockoe Bottom that we’ve proposed and voted for, they’re just being ignored because everyone is tantalized by the prospect of Shockoe Center. As Greg Wells was quoted in the paper, Richmond’s fond of projects that will “hit it out of the park,” ie the performing arts center, the convention center, the canal walk, 6th st marketplace, now Shockoe Center. What our leadership neglects is better investment in basic city-building, that’s what would allow organic growth to happen without these mega-millions projects billed to “save” downtown from itself.
The Master Plan is full of these very basic ideas that would encourage private investment. Bury utility lines, plant trees, improve lighting, improve transit- these are the things that make people and businesses thrive in the city. As stated in the Plan, Shockoe Slip should be the model for developing the Bottom because it incorporates those elements of urban design.
ptaylor- thanks for the insightful comments.
By the way, I personally believe a landscaped plaza with a fountain and a dog park at this location would attract more daily foot traffic than a baseball stadium- and cost about $100 million less.
Anna,
You don’t even live here! How in the world can you say what Richmonders will or will not do from one minute to the next, much less from September to March?
“everyone thinks that the ball park will be the messiah”
Again the same old line and conspiracy theory.
Anna, I believe has stated she does indeed live in Richmond.
Stuart, the Slave Trail, better lighting, streetscapes and the transit center are part of the Highwoods proposal. In addition there is already existing parking for 80,000 downtown workers, more than enough for the 4,000 to 8,000 new consumers that will discover the rich history of Richmond’s birthplace.
Meanwhile, $100,000 is money well spent to see if this project is worth persueing. The plan all along was for the city to do due dilegence on it’s part.
It may cost a $100 million dollars less, but it also will not have any return in that it will not generate $$$. Not to mention, that would most likely come out of the city’s budget.
The Downtown Master Plan sounds wonderful, but who’s paying for it?
Also, how do you know the stadium hasn’t taken the water table into consideration? Or that the stadium doesn’t have “major engineering works” factored into the cost – considering the cost of the stadium, *something* has to be going on. I haven’t seen any concrete plans, have you? Unless you’ve specifically been told they don’t exist, I wouldn’t assume they don’t.
Who said I dont live here? I hope you’re not referring to the time when I said I lived in NC as a joke (after somebody accused me of it). I’ve lived here for 21 years.
The team is playing THIS season in Connecticut and next season in the Diamond.
If the team were smart they would stay up there at least 2 more seasons until they start building the park. If the financing falls through they will be stuck in the Diamond though I have a feeling they will anyways.
Paul don’t kid yourself they are there to see a baseball game and nothing more. They will go to the park watch the game,eat at the concession stand and drive out as quickly as they can because they are afraid to venture past that point.
Harbor Park…. Just ask Waterside how many tourist it brings they will tell you less than 1000 all season but hey you want imagine that is going to happen be my guest. That is the problem you want to make Baseball your Messiah and most are not willing to see that your savior may not be able do everything you think it will.
110,000 is good investment if you were to use an unbiased company but that is not the case. It is now a dog and pony show and the City Council is already going to not only support the Venture but I am sure they will find a way to sink as much Tax payers money into this without looking like they didn’t do any real research into this.
You’ve used the term Messiah 3 times here and many times elsewhere. It gets a little old. I and others don’t put blind faith in this, but feel it can fill a big hole and help tie together the SB shopping and entertainment district, so do many of the businesses and neighbors. There are so many places and historical sites within walking distance of the stadium. I think they will benefit from this. Many people attending these games have never been to Shockoe Bottom and will come back for the Poe Museum, the restaurants, the slave trail. That’s my hope. I think there is a rational basis for this, you ascribe it to a Mesiannic vision.
Anna I question the assumption that building a baseball stadium is going to generate revenue for the city. How much profit did baseball at the Diamond generate?
The facts are that minor league baseball never brought jobs to Richmond, it never attracted tourism, and generally never added any value to the Richmond brand.
There’s no reason to think that minor league baseball is going to help Richmond turn an economic corner because it reinvents itself in a different part of town. ESPECIALLY if we have to sink untold tens of millions of public $$$ into the creek running under 17th street.
If some developers want to come in and build new commercial/residential space in this part of the Bottom, I think that’s great. But to say that it won’t be successful without a minor league baseball stadium next door is ridiculous.
The last thing we need in the city core is yet another expensive, gigantic building on a superblock that stands empty 95% of the time.
Paul we don’t need a $100 million minor league baseball stadium as part of a deal to do the things we’ve already told Council to do. We’ve already agreed on all these infrastructure improvements, a baseball stadium was not part of the plan.
The city, through Mayor Wilder, asked some companies to come up with proposals for a baseball park. Now, two years later and mired in an historic economic crisis, we must carefully manage our public assets and say no to this exorbitantly expensive project. It is nothing more than a frivolity at best, and a budget disaster at worst.
As for the transfer center being part of the Highwoods proposal, that is irrelevant because it is going to be built regardless of whether the Shockoe Center deal goes through or not. That project is in motion already.
Except that this exorbidantly expensive project is largely privately financed. If the bonds don’t sell and the city isn’t held harmless, then this project goes away.
I personally have real questions why the City needs to spend $70 million on a transfer center, but I’m willing to hear the arguement. A vastly improved Bus Rapid Transit system seems like a better value.
That should read “if the bonds DON’T sell”
Well Paul you assume they build it that they will come. Then you assume they will stick around when you have examples that many time that does not happen and yet you are tired when someone points this out to you. Many of the same people you say will come are not going to stay because Shockoe Bottom has a standing reputation of a place where bad things happen. (Far from the truth but reputations precede most people’s visit)
You just have an excellent excuse for the developers and the people who back this thing to call it failure when nothing happens. That is not what a Ball team needs nor what Shockoe Bottom needs. What we need is either Shopping that local people can take advantage of.
Stuart the big joke is that the transfer center will take away all the parking that they have set aside for the Ball park. and the Designs don’t fit the area they have set aside but they fail to mention any of that.
Richmond would have a Walmart there in less than a year if the city had not managed to tick them off or Sonic or several other large companies who refuse to have any business inside Richmond city limits. We forget that little tidbit of information when we say no one will develop there.
I have seen good places for ballparks but Shockoe Bottom is not it.
Paul I could use Messiah some more if you would like I know it is old but you attempting to blow sunshine and rainbows up my backside over bringing in tourism through the Magic of Baseball then expect me not to attribute to religious fervor when it has been proven that Grown men paying a kids game is not a complete money making solution for every location that people propose. Amen
SBD, are you suggesting that a Walmart or a drive through fast food joint in Shockoe Bottom would have been a good thing? Geez.
No I was just mentioning the some of the companies that will not do business in Richmond City limits Fan and there are plenty of others who have the same policy.
SBD #52
For what it’s worth, I’d take a Walmart in Richmond in a heartbeat, The Diamond seems like a perfect location. I’ll light a candle, next time I’m in church.
Agreed Paul, if you are going to bring bix box store hell to the city limits, the Boulevard area between the railroad tracks and I-95 is the perfect place for it.
Hey, just checking in….the Bottom under water yet with all this rain??
Blub Blub Blub
No they fixed that but all the repairs are centered around the very area they want to put a Ball park on top of it funny that
We still need the rain so the valley is soaking it up pretty well.
The few trees that are left in Shockoe are probably enjoying the respite.
[...] we wait for the latest economic study on the Shockoe Center and stadium proposal, the debate keeps on in our neighborhood. The RTD [...]
[...] Jones plans to release the executive summary of a study on the proposed Shockoe Stadium today. The group performing the study had already indicated support for a ballpark in Shockoe, but [...]